Transcript

Jared McCormack

Welcome to MFA Writers, the podcast where we talk to creative writing MFA students about their program, their process, and a piece they’re working on. I’m your host, Jared McCormack.

Today I’m with Ray Wise. Ray is a multi-genre writer living in Philadelphia, where they are completing the final semester of their MFA at Rutgers-Camden. Ray's work has been published in Passages North, Rose Books Reader, Barrelhouse, Hobart, and elsewhere. They’ve been nominated for Best of the Net and supported by Sundress Academy for the Arts. They are currently at work on a novel manuscript and a poetry collection. Thanks for being here.

Ray Wise

Yeah, super happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Jared McCormack

I'm excited to talk about your writing, of course, but first I want to talk about how you got into writing because this is not a thing you've always done. In fact, you didn't start writing creatively until your twenties. So what motivated you to start writing in your twenties?

Ray Wise

Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, I come from a really creative family. Like my mom is an artist, my sister's an artist. And I think like, I've always thought of creativity as like the sort of coolest thing you can do, but they're both visual artists and that like never came naturally to me. So I was like, okay, that's out for me. And I think maybe in the back of my head, maybe starting sometime in college, I was like, maybe I could be a writer, you know, maybe that's my path. Because I was a really good academic writer. Like I was just good at school. But I don't know. I basically just, I guess on a whim took a catapult class during COVID. I signed up for a workshop and had no idea what a workshop was and I had nothing prepared and I was totally in over my head. But it was like my first introduction to people who took writing seriously even though that workshop totally stunted me for a year. Like I was too scared to go back for a long time, but then eventually I worked up the courage and like had something a tiny bit better and was like, okay, cool. Like this is maybe something I could get better at over time. So yeah, it was sort of a, I guess a COVID thing where I was like, How am I going to make meaning out of my life? And I was also, I guess, working jobs that felt very unfulfilling. So when I started taking classes online, I was looking forward to them every week. I was super excited. I was like... oh, life can be more than just my computer job, which felt fake anyway. So yeah. And then I guess in terms of how I got taking writing seriously, that was a sort of different thing. But I have a very good friend who was applying to MFAs around the time that I started taking these classes. And I was in a workshop with Madeline Lucas, which was called Writing Intimacy. And somebody in that class was like, I am obsessed with taking writing classes. I take them all the time. I was like, oh, you can just take them all the time. Like, that's amazing. And my friend at the time was applying to MFAs herself. And she was kind of like, well, if you're going to take writing classes all the time, like you could go to grad school for this.

Jared McCormack

So you said you took that catapult class and then afterwards you felt a little discouraged, like you had to work up the courage to go back and do another one. What was that class like being in your first workshop? What was that experience like?

Ray Wise

Yeah, I mean, it was just really intimidating. I didn't know. It was also like perhaps the worst part of COVID that we went through, which was like six months in when everybody was like, oh, this is much more serious than we thought it was. So I think the vibe was a little bit tricky because of that. But in terms of the writing, like... Yeah. I mean, I had never written a story, let alone a story that someone else was going to read. And I think what was hard about that experience was that it was called a generative workshop, which now I would know is still a workshop. But at that point, I thought that we would be writing the material in the class. So I was like, oh, I have to have separate stuff. Like the generative thing is like a separate thing. And that was just incredibly stressful. And also like, In hindsight, totally fine. But I definitely had no idea how to give feedback, had no idea how to receive feedback, and wasn't really in a place to be receiving feedback because my stories made no sense, which is, of course, how everyone's stories are at the beginning. But I had a great instructor. Carrie Luna was her name. And she, we had like our one-on-one meetings at the end and she was very encouraging. And I think that was like, she planted a seed where even though I needed a break after that and was like, I need a sec. She was, she was very much like, keep going. It gets better. And that was really helpful to hear. And you kept going. Yeah. No turning back now. No turning back now. Absolutely.

Jared McCormack

Okay. So you mentioned this computer job that you had before joining the MFA that you described as not particularly fulfilling. I want to hear more about that. I want to hear how you ended up in that career. You came from this really artsy family. It sounds like you've been thinking about pursuing art in some way most of your life, but then you ended up in a tech job. So I’m curious to hear you describe that path, how you ended up there and like what that experience was like.

Ray Wise

Yeah, I think, well, yeah, it's interesting. I guess, first of all, like my dad is like the not artsy part of our family. And I think I was always like, I'm like him, like I'm like whatever, practical. And like, I think I was also kind of like, if I'm not a visual artist, like I'm a practical person, I should be practical, whatever. And yeah, I think after college, I had no idea what to do with myself. So I just got a job and it happened to be like a tiny tech startup that like, whatever, somebody who knew somebody was working at and like they needed a customer service agent and the person would work at 6 a.m. And I was like, sure, that'll be me. Perfect. Because I just wanted to be out in the world and start my life is I think how I felt. Yeah. So yeah. And then I just kept doing that. And like, I like, I like a challenge and I don't like to like, you know, if something's challenging, perhaps this informs the workshop thing as well. Like I'd rather, I'm going to keep going at it. And I was working at these crazy companies with like, you know, 28 year old CEOs who were like, practicing like whatever, like radical candor and like saying the meanest things in the world and then being like, we're just being transparent with you, you know? And so I think I was just like in my early twenties, like, okay, well, this is a place where I'm doing a terrible job and I want to get better at it. And so I kind of kept doing that and I did get better at it. Like I, you know, by the end of working in those environments, I knew how they operated. And I think like, I thought that if I figured out how they operated and how to do it right, then I would like it. But this was the point where I started taking writing classes. And I was like, oh, this is like a total waste of my time. This is horrible. What a nightmare.

Jared McCormack

Yeah. Going from that environment to a workshop where people are like, you know, there's so much to like about this piece…

Ray Wise

Exactly. I was like, God, everyone's so sweet. And this is like a horrible story. Like, thank you guys so much. Yeah. So and like, yeah, I had like been fired by these men. Like, I was like, whatever, beaten down and built back up. And then. Yeah. So writing seemed like a dream to me. And that's kind of why I was like, I'll just keep taking these classes because this is so much more pleasurable than anything that's going on in my day to day.

Jared McCormack

So have you found having gone through that experience in that tech world? Have you found that influencing you as a writer or influencing your writing in any way?

Ray Wise

Yeah, I think definitely. I think something people say all the time that is unfortunately true is that being a writer comes with like insane amounts of rejection. I think like I definitely built up a very thick skin from that experience that has served me well, like especially like early on when you're trying to get your first thing published, like I just kept sending out my horrible poems until somebody took one, you know, like, and that was like, I think had I not faced so much rejection my early twenties, I probably would have had a harder time with that. And so I think that's been like the sort of, yeah, just like, that sort of mentality has been really useful. And then also lot of my writing, not what I just read necessarily, although probably parts of the novel, but like a lot of my stories and early writing centered around like these dystopian tech worlds where the characters can't escape and they like do something very brash to like get out of the situation they're in, which is to say for a while the content was like very centered around that, which was helpful. Like I had something to draw from and that was cool. Yeah.

Jared McCormack

Yeah, well, let's talk about the writing itself a bit more because I think what you do is super interesting. Obviously, you read that wonderful excerpt from your novel, but you also write poetry and nonfiction. And it sounds like some fiction that's at least somewhat inspired by these experiences you've gone through. So what motivates or inspires you to work all three of these genres instead of just choosing one?

Ray Wise

Yeah. I mean, that's a really good question. I sometimes am exhausted by it I don't know. But I took... In that period where I was like, I can take writing classes online. I took them in a couple genres. I took a general prose a couple times and then I also tested out poetry and had no idea poetry was and really, really liked it. It was just a different mode that I was very interested in and didn't understand a lot about. So I took that first workshop then I was like, okay, cool. understand a little bit what a poem is. And then I just sort of kept writing them. And yeah, I think writing across genres is really cool because poetry informs my fiction and nonfiction probably more than the other way around. But yeah, I've taken poetry classes every semester at my MFA, and I just always feel really lucky to be able to like... engage with like a different economy of language, I guess. Like it feels much more like, much more compact, obviously, and much more like based on surprise. And I find myself pulling those sort of elements back to my fiction or back to my nonfiction where it's like, how can I say this in the most streamlined way possible? And what would keep a reader interested? Probably the most surprising thing. So I think about that a lot.

Jared McCormack

How do you decide that an idea you have should be fiction or it should be nonfiction or it should be poetry? Or is that not really how your process works? Do you just start writing and then realize somewhere along the line that, oh, actually, this isn't a short story. It's a poem. How does that work for you?

Ray Wise

Yeah, that's a good question. I usually have an idea of what I want to write like in the highest categorical sense. And then the information comes out how it comes out. So like, I want to write an essay about this thing and then I'll, I'll get into it. I don't often find myself switching after I've started something, but I do find that like, I think a big part of my approach to writing is like quantity over quality and just like something good will come if I keep going. And so often I'll find that like a theme that I threw into a poem a few months ago is now like whatever, one of the braids to this essay. like, I didn't necessarily plan that, but maybe the poem I don't really like, but the essay it's working a lot better. So that's cool. It does feel very organic and, And at the same time, yeah, I'm not very flexible once I start something, I guess. Yeah. For better, for worse.

Jared McCormack

Also informed by your tech experience, maybe.

Ray Wise

Totally. Yeah. I'm very rigid, as it turns out. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, talk about that. It was like a total accident. But obviously, personality chooses. You make choices. Yeah. Yeah.

Jared McCormack

I'm always curious to talk to writers who are working across genres about the process, because I imagine the process of writing a novel is very different from the process of writing a poem, for instance. So in what ways do you see your process changing? Does your routine change? The way that you approach the writing process itself? How does that change when you're working in one or the other?

Ray Wise

Yeah, well, yeah, it's interesting because my writing process in general has changed so much in the context of the MFA, which I'm sure people say all the time, but like, and I guess this is still true, but like before the MFA, started doing Chelsea Hodson's morning writing club. I don't know if you are familiar. She, yeah, she runs this club. It's like $9 a month and you get all this amazing stuff. But like the core component of the club is that you log on every morning and write for two hours with a group of people on Zoom. And so I became like a disciple of Chelsea's. Like I was like in this club, but I was like, and that really transformed my relationship to writing. And I think like, yeah, she's just had a huge influence on me in general. I took a workshop of hers right before I started the club. And so I was sort of already really appreciating her feedback. And she was also very supportive with the MFA applications. All of this to say, I was writing every day to try and get into an MFA. Like I was working every morning on the essays that I would submit. And this, I mean, I had just had no body of work to pull from when I applied. So I was like, I need to make work. And that hasn't been so possible in the MFA because I found that the deadlines, more or less, I try to write every day still, but sometimes I'm like, okay, I have to write all day to make this deadline. And then it's like, okay, I cannot write for three days after I do that. Like that's exhausting. Yeah. So that's been interesting. And like, honestly, I don't really know how I feel, but I'm sure I'll have feelings when I'm out of the program about that. But it has been cool to be like, I think there's a lot of pros to writing steadily every day. There's also a lot of pros to pushing yourself and finishing a thing on a deadline which I guess is like one of the whole points of the MFA. But yeah, I think like in general, I'm a very rigid person. I like the structure of having to attend to this thing every day. And that's worked pretty well for me.

Jared McCormack

And whether you're working on poetry at the moment or you're working on prose, you are still sitting down trying to write every day.

Ray Wise

Uh, okay. Actually, no. Well, yes, I usually am working on prose when I'm doing my everyday thing. Poetry is a much more of the moment thing that I don't take as seriously for better or for worse. I have a friend who calls it morning brain and night brain. I feel like poetry is like my night brain. Like it's just like, and things are a little weirder and more fluid. And, yeah, that being said, during my MFA, I was in a poetry workshop where the professor was like, I think you should try writing a poem over a long period of time. And I was like, challenge accepted. And I started adding to a poem every single night. And this was like another sort of structure that I imposed on myself that I wound up doing for a good bit of time. And now I have this body of text that I have no idea what to do with, which is to say that sometimes structure works, but usually poetry is like later in the day and sort of on my notes app. Yeah. Editing while I'm walking around or something like this.

Jared McCormack

So is experimenting with craft and process something that you enjoy doing? Like, what did you learn from the process of writing that really long poem over a long period of time?

Ray Wise

Yeah, I really enjoyed it. And I hadn't done something like that. And I'm excited about the prospect of imposing things. Actually, I guess I also did something like that this summer. Wow. It's funny to talk about this all in one. This summer, I also was like, I started my novel draft mid second semester last year toward the beginning. I was like, don't have anything to do this summer. Rutgers Camden is fully funded. So it was like I was able to take time off, hang out in Philadelphia. And I was like, why don't I try to finish my novel draft, the first draft. So I wrote a thousand words every day for four months and did that. That was very different than the poem, but I think both allow for mess that I'm not necessarily otherwise comfortable with. Like I'll obsess over a sentence for forever if I'm allowed to. So I try to find ways to undercut that. Yeah. I had a teacher once, Chelsea, actually, who was like, I think you should write in super tiny font so you can't even see it. And I was like, I did try that, but it didn't work for me. But what does work for me is imposing word counts or whatever. I don't know if I've learned anything specific about craft from that, except that the thing that's super hard to do when you're thinking big picture about something is to let loose. Like you're like, I want to hit all these notes. I want to like, the plot needs to move from A to B to C. Like, how am I going to do that? And I think like giving yourself restrictions that require letting loose and like finding yourself in a place that you didn't expect is really fun and exciting.

Jared McCormack

Yeah. I mean, I think there are a lot of pros to having that kind of writing schedule, getting into a routine where you're writing like two hours every day and you're like working on a project.But then having a professor say, why don't you try this out? Why don't you do this wild thing that kind of breaks you out of that routine also can be generative in a different kind of way. And it sounds like that's the way it has been for you.

Ray Wise

Totally. Yeah. I am very, yeah, I love getting an outside perspective and I think Rutgers Camden has been really cool because they're, it's a multi-genre program. You get perspectives from all types of types of teachers. Yeah, it's nice to get a little nudge every once in a while, you know?

Jared McCormack

Yeah, totally. Absolutely. Well, let's talk about the program a little bit more. The MFA at Rutgers Camden, you mentioned, is a kind of multi-genre program. They encourage you to work across genres, even though they have concentrations in poetry, fiction, and nonfiction. For people who don't know, it's located in Camden, New Jersey, just across the river from Philadelphia. It's a two-year program. It sounds like it fits pretty well with what you're trying to do. So what is it that drew you to Rutgers Camden and their MFA program?

Ray Wise

Yeah. I mean, it fits really well with what I'm trying to do, which is the big thing that drew me to it. Like I, a lot of programs have restrictions about taking classes in other genres. Like I know like some you can take craft or not workshop or you have to apply practice. Often it's just not the case. Like people just don't do that. And so I was very excited that Rutgers Camden offers immense flexibility in that area. It's also fully funded. And that was really compelling to me. It's fully funded in Philadelphia, which is a very affordable place to live. I was living in New York before this and the programs I got into, I was weighing options in New York and this one and It was like, well, I'm not going to be able to, even if I'm fully funded in New York, I'm going to have to work, which is, there are pros to that approach as well. Like I know a lot of people find that learning to write in your day-to-day life is very valuable and I totally agree. I really wanted time off. I really wanted to focus on nothing else for a little while. So yeah, it was very compelling. I also came down to visit and immediately had the feeling that this is correct. And that was just very cool. Philadelphia was correct. The writer's house on campus was correct. The workshop was really sweet. I read this like Ottessa Moshfegh profile on the train ride on the way home where she talks about her MFA and she's like, It's an insane profile in The New Yorker, which is kind of like, all I needed was time to write. And I was like, that's all I need. So I am her. It'll be great.

Jared McCormack

So you've mentioned a couple times that the program is fully funded. For any listeners who don't know, usually fully funded means every student who attends gets tuition remission and stipend. But when I was reading at the website, Rutgers Camden's website, it seemed to imply that some students don't get that funding, which is what I would normally call partial funding. So I definitely want to clarify this so anyone listening knows, if they get in are they guaranteed to get funding or is that funding only guaranteed for some of the students?

Ray Wise

No. Yeah. So it's, it's, if you get in and you want fully full funding, you get it is my understanding. So the website wording is vague for, I think, compliance reasons, because there are people that don't opt into that. You can go part-time if you would like, and you can pay in-state tuition or you can, Yeah, like work for the university while you do it and pay that way. But if you get in and you want full funding, you get it. The stipend is incredibly generous. And yeah, the deal is that you're a teaching assistant, but you are teaching Comp 101 and Comp 102. You're responsible for your own classroom. And that starts the first semester.

Jared McCormack

So that's what you're getting paid to do. How many classes do you teach each semester?

Ray Wise

One.

Jared McCormack

One class per semester. And you do that each semester for the two years?

Ray Wise

Yes. Yeah.

Jared McCormack

Cool. How's the teaching been going?

Ray Wise

The teaching has been great. I love teaching. I think it is very challenging to move to a new city. You get a week of training at the start of the program to learn how to teach a classroom. Most of us have never done that before. And so then it's sort of like, okay, now you're doing it. So I think that does make the first semester particularly interesting. It's a big adjustment. I would say the workload is just a big adjustment, but you are in like a practicum where you meet every week and you sort of talk to your supervisor about the problems you're running into and you lesson plan together. And it's, it's all, you know, overall very amazing and worth it, but it definitely is like a big shift. But yeah, I love teaching. The kids are wonderful. You have a lot of flexibility in what you get to teach them. Like the basic units are lined out for you, you get to teach them whatever writing you want to teach them. I tend to make my classes creative oriented. Yeah. It's a fun time. I, I don't know what, what the teens are up to these days and always like saying funny stuff. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, so it's, it's just fun. Yeah. could probably pull out some tech jargon and confuse them too, if you wanted to. I could confuse them, but they just make fun of me. They're always telling me I’m old. I'm like, you guys, I'm not even 30. Yeah. Yeah, they think I'm ancient. But yeah, it's been really good. I love teaching. Yeah, I guess one other thing I'd say about it is it's like it's a particular teaching environment. It's like a commuter campus. Most of the students live at home with their families. South Jersey is a very diverse place. Most of them live in South Jersey. You kind of run the gamut for types of people that you could encounter, depending on whether they're from Camden itself or from a suburb 30 minutes outside Camden. And I think it's really fun to like, get synergy going in the classroom and like help, help them learn that like, they're not that different from each other, you know, so.

Jared McCormack

Okay, so you mentioned that in return for teaching, you get a generous stipend at Rutgers Camden, according to the website, it's around 36,000. Is that correct?

Ray Wise

Yeah, it's around 36. There was a big statewide strike at Rutgers a few, two years ago, like immediately preceding my arrival. And during that strike, it was negotiated that the stipend will go up to $40,000 within a few years. So every year it gets increased at a regular interval. You get great health insurance. It's a pretty sweet deal.

Jared McCormack

That's great. And that amount of money has been perfectly fine. You are able to live comfortably and focus on the writing, all those things you were hoping to accomplish?

Ray Wise

Yeah, actually, it's been, it's great. I don't think anyone else in my cohort at least is working a second job right now, which is like a blessing, you know? Yeah.

Jared McCormack

Yeah. And not always the case in these programs, for sure. There's lots of fully funded programs that offer stipends that don't really cover all of your expenses. So then you end up doing like a part-time job on the side to kind make up for it.

Ray Wise

Totally. And honestly, the program is rigorous. Like I do not think it's possible to work during it, like between the teaching and the course load, it's, it's a lot. So, yeah, very grateful for that. And Philadelphia is affordable, which is also great.

Jared McCormack

How many classes do you take each semester?

Ray Wise

Yeah, so you take three to four every semester. There's at least one semester you have to take four. And you also have to take five workshops through the program. So at least one semester where you're taking two workshops. So it's a substantial amount of coursework. Like, yeah, the semesters where I've been in two workshops or in four classes I am wiped by the end. Like I, yeah. It's also amazing because you get to push yourself and see where your writing goes when you're doing two things at once.

Jared McCormack

Yeah. Yeah. Just as a counterexample, the program that I attended was a three-year program that probably required about the same number of courses, but spread over three years. But we were also teaching two classes per semester. So sometimes these things, you know, they kind of even out. But yeah, that's a lot of classes to be taking in two years. But it's nice that you only have the one-one teaching load.

Ray Wise

Yeah, two is a lot. I do not know how I would do that. But yeah, yeah, it does feel, I don't, my friends that have taken MFAs, I don't know anyone that's been in more than two classes a semester. And that seems perfectly reasonable and challenging to me. So.

Jared McCormack

One thing I wanted to talk with you about is the size of the program, because before the interview, you described it as tiny. But of course, that means different things to different people. So about how many students are in the program?

Ray Wise

Totally. And it is tiny to me, but of course, there are much tinier MFA programs out there. Yeah, there's about seven people in each cohort across all genres. So fiction, nonfiction, poetry, seven.

Jared McCormack

Okay. And it's a two-year program. So about 14 students in the program at any given time?

Ray Wise

Totally. Yeah.

Jared McCormack

So what do you think are the pros and cons of being in a small program like that?

Ray Wise

I mean, the pros are that you get to know your professors pretty well. That has been really cool. On the flip side, there are not that many professors because there are not that many students and the university obviously allocates accordingly, which honestly is not a bad thing. I have overall loved the professors that I've worked with, but I do think like, you know, there are some programs where they have like a roster to choose from and, that is probably also really fun in its own way, you know? But yeah, I guess also given the size of the program, the professors per genre are very small. So like we do have visiting writers circle through pretty frequently, but obviously fiction is the dominant thing, dominant genre. We have the most professors in that. There's couple that do both nonfiction and fiction, and then there's like one permanent poetry faculty. So yeah, I think that you get to know them really well. That's really cool. They get to know your writing and see how your writing changes, which is also pretty special. And depending on the situation, that can also pose its own challenges, especially if people are going on sabbatical, you know, like there are a bunch of nonfiction people in my cohort and are like main guys on sabbatical for our thesis semester. And we all love him. So that's, that's posed its own challenge, but yeah.

Jared McCormack

Yeah. it's a good thing to talk about and a good thing for listeners to just have on their radar. Because that was also a thing that surprised me when I joined the MFA program, because my program was also fairly small and the faculty was fairly small. And yes, there were times, there were semesters during my program where a professor wasn't there the whole semester because they were on sabbatical. And then suddenly small faculty becomes a tiny faculty and that can affect your experience for a semester or two. So it's a good thing to just have in mind and kind of weigh the pros and cons of that between being able to get to know the faculty really well, would you rather have that? Or would you rather have a kind of larger faculty, diverse faculty where you can get like all these different viewpoints throughout your time in the program?

Ray Wise

Yeah, totally.

Jared McCormack

Yeah. Well, although the program is small, it seems they have several interesting opportunities available to students beyond just the classes. On the website, one thing that's mentioned is that Story Quarterly, which is an award-winning literary magazine, is housed at Rutgers Camden, which I didn't realize. Are students in the MFA able to get experience working on the magazine while they're in the program?

Ray Wise

Yeah, so you can't, you don't work on the magazine. The magazine is run by grown-up writers, I guess, including Paul Lisicky, who's our nonfiction professor. But you can be a reader. So if you want reading experience, that is a great option. I also have gotten reading and editing opportunities and a bunch of us have through the alumni network. So Story Quarterly is like a great option. Pretty soon after I joined, somebody reached out to us and was like, do you wanna be readers for the Rumpus? That was cool. People are very supportive and like opening doors for each other. So I feel like the opportunities are maybe a little bit more expansive than the website gives it credit for, which is really nice.

Jared McCormack

Another thing I noticed on the website was that there's a really cool NEA supported reading series called Writers in Camden that brings well-known writers to school to give talks. What's that been like?

Ray Wise

Yeah, Writers in Camden is amazing. Shout out to Sienna, our program coordinator who organizes it. Writers in Camden brings three to five writers to Camden every semester. And we always have a really cool range of writers. And the program was on hold during COVID. And then we did not have a program coordinator for a period of time. And we got a new one last year. Her name is Sienna. She also graduated from the program. So she's like relaunched the thing and is very devoted to making it amazing. And it really has been. We get, yeah, we just get access to cool writers that otherwise, like it's just very different than going to a program in New York where everyone's passing through all the time. So Writers in Camden has been like an amazing sort of doorway to the actual writing world. And that's been really, really special, I would say. Yeah. And I don't know if this is on the website, but another thing that's been really cool about this program, in addition to Writers in Camden, we also have something called the MFA Org, where basically a group of the MFA students is on the org and gets a certain amount of money from the university to organize our own events as well. So we also bring typically three to four writers a semester that way, which are like smaller craft talks and readings that we get to like talk to the writers. This semester we had an editing and agent panel. And then a couple of writers come and do generative craft talks with us. So yeah, between the two things, we have a pretty good amount of resources for the size that we are, which is really nice.

Jared McCormack

And that's a great way to complement that smaller faculty, right? So even though there's fewer full-time faculty members who are on campus all the time, you have, it sounds like, lots of writers coming all the time each semester. So a chance to meet new people, get some different eyes on your work, potentially hear what they're doing with their craft, all that.

Ray Wise

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty cool.

Jared McCormack

There were a couple other things mentioned on the website that didn't have as much information about them. So curious to hear if you had more information. So for instance, there's a mention of some ambiguous international opportunities in Europe, Asia, or South America, which I'm curious what that's all about. And then there's also mention of residencies at the Rutgers University Pinelands Field Station. But again, there isn't a lot of information about these things. So I was curious if you knew anything about them.

Ray Wise

Yeah. OK, so the international opportunity is basically like Rutgers School of Liberal Arts undergrad and grad organized these courses that are they happen. It's pretty like standard college stuff, I guess, like they happen over 10 days in Greece or South America or something. And you can use one of your courses. Like you can do one of your courses through that. So I have friends who have done it. You kind of go on a trip with a bunch of undergrads, but you get class credit and it doesn't necessarily have to be. It's usually not directly in the writing world. One of our requirements is that we have to take an elective so you can kind of make your elective this international travel if you'd like. It is not covered by the university, but the university will. can get a grant of up to like $500 to contribute to it. So, yeah. And I know people have had a grand, great old time on these trips. They seem really fun. I didn't personally do one, but it seems cool.

Jared McCormack

And this Rutgers University Pinelands Field Station Residency?

Ray Wise

Totally. Yeah, that we as an MFA org go to a retreat at least once a semester, or at least once a year, ideally once a semester at basically a Rutgers facility where we spend the weekend hanging out, bonding, writing. And I think that that is what they are referring to on the website, which is nice, nice marketing. And it's a great time.

Jared McCormack

Sounds like a good way to build community. Have you felt like the community amongst your cohort and your peers has been pretty good? It's a small program, so I imagine you get to know people pretty well. You get to know people incredibly well.

Ray Wise

Yeah. Which is, yeah, honestly, I think it's really fun. I think most people really love it. It's very tight knit and everyone quickly knows everything about you, which is like just by nature of the program. So I think everybody in the first semester is like, how is this going to work? And then by the end of the first year, you're like, oh, this is amazing. We hang out outside the program a good amount. And even the people that you like wouldn't expect yourself to bond to or bond with, like, I feel like the nature of the program is just that you wind up doing that, which is, which is special. It's cool.

Jared McCormack

Well, it sounds like your experience has overall been really cool. I really appreciate you sharing all this stuff with us. Before we go, the last question I ask every person I interview is, what is one way in which the MFA experience has been different for better or for worse from your expectations when applying?

Ray Wise

Honestly, one thing that's been shocking, and I was talking to my friend about this, the way, I feel like I'm just raving about Rutgers Camden. And there are, there are things to say about it. Like, of course, every program has its problems. But my writing has gotten significantly better. And that's like, Of course, I knew I wasn't like a perfect, amazing writer beforehand, but it has been really cool to see just like by nature of producing, you do inevitably get better. And I feel like that's like something heard teachers say, especially early on when I was in workshops where I didn't know, they're just like, the only advice is to just keep going and you will eventually get there. And it feels totally impossible. And then it's like, oh no, if you literally just keep doing it, you will get better. And that's been really cool to see in this context. And I guess it's like for myself and also my peers, like it's cool to watch everyone come into their voices, come into what they're doing. I think that has been surprisingly satisfying and not what you think about when you are signing up for one of these things. Like I think I was thinking of school, you know, and it's that, but it's also other stuff.

Jared McCormack

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you talked about how you hadn't really written formally much before this. And when you had, you were kind of on your own. So it's nice to get around people who are all striving for the same thing and seeing people that have achieved what you're trying to achieve and be like, okay, this is possible.

Ray Wise

Okay, yeah, absolutely. That has been really cool. And I think that was the thing that I wanted to get out of an MFA. And I feel like I have really gotten that. And I guess on that note, like, what's also been cool is because the program is so small, because it's so adjacent to Philadelphia, there is like a very strong community in Philadelphia that's like, very DIY. And I would say from my own experience, like much more approachable than New York, which has been amazing. Cause I would go to New York readings, like trying to get in there and it's so intimidating. I was like, it's just very cool. Everyone seems so chic. And not that nobody's chic and everyone's chic in Philadelphia as well, but it's like, everybody's really inviting. And that's been, that's been special too. Yeah.

Jared McCormack

Well, that sounds great. I'm glad the experience has been good so far. Good luck as you finish up. You're in your last semester, right?

Ray Wise

Yeah, I'm working on finishing my thesis.

Jared McCormack

Okay, well, good luck. I know that process and it can be a lot, but you'll get there. And yeah, I'm excited to read the novel, excited to read the poetry. Thanks again for taking the time to stop in and talk to me for a bit.

Ray Wise

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This was really nice, really fun.

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